Wiktionary - Recent changes [en]: Wiktionary talk:About Ancient Greek

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Wiktionary talk:About Ancient Greek May 30th 2012, 00:53 ‎Redesigning the IPA tokens?: ← Older revision Revision as of 00:53, 30 May 2012 Line 687: Line 687:   :I can remove the extra macrons as a matter of simplicity, but absolute mid pitch ''is'' what macrons are used for in IPA, no matter how counterintuitive that might seem. It's sort of like how IPA unexpected uses the diaeresis to mark a vowel as more centered. Circumflex and caron have specific meanings too. See [[Wikipedia:International Phonetic Alphabet#Diacritics]] and [[Wikipedia:International Phonetic Alphabet#Suprasegmentals]]. {{IPAchar|/ȁ à ā á a̋/}} are absolute pitch distinctions relative to the entire IPA sample. {{IPAchar|/ǎ â/}} (global rise and global fall respectively) are only relative to the previous pitch. We've been using {{IPAchar|/à ā á/}} instead of {{IPAchar|/ǎ â/}}, because the unaccented vowel tokens are completely agnostic about relative nearby pitch, but using {{IPAchar|/ǎ â/}} would not make this possible, such that πόλις = {{IPAchar|/pǒlîs/}}). But using absolute pitch marks, πόλις = {{IPAchar|/pólīs/}} or, as you may prefer, {{IPAchar|/pólis/}}. And although it may be strange to put a diacritic over {{IPAchar|/ː/}}, it's not impossible if {{IPAchar|/ː/}} is an elongation of the previous vowel, such that {{IPAchar|/aː/}} is essentially equivalent to {{IPAchar|/a͡a/}} as a diphthong of itself. But I opted not to use tie markers in the redesign because it makes pitch diacritics more complicated to place...ultimately I did away with the ties and just use {{IPAchar|/./}} to separate immediately adjacent vowel syllables.   :I can remove the extra macrons as a matter of simplicity, but absolute mid pitch ''is'' what macrons are used for in IPA, no matter how counterintuitive that might seem. It's sort of like how IPA unexpected uses the diaeresis to mark a vowel as more centered. Circumflex and caron have specific meanings too. See [[Wikipedia:International Phonetic Alphabet#Diacritics]] and [[Wikipedia:International Phonetic Alphabet#Suprasegmentals]]. {{IPAchar|/ȁ à ā á a̋/}} are absolute pitch distinctions relative to the entire IPA sample. {{IPAchar|/ǎ â/}} (global rise and global fall respectively) are only relative to the previous pitch. We've been using {{IPAchar|/à ā á/}} instead of {{IPAchar|/ǎ â/}}, because the unaccented vowel tokens are completely agnostic about relative nearby pitch, but using {{IPAchar|/ǎ â/}} would not make this possible, such that πόλις = {{IPAchar|/pǒlîs/}}). But using absolute pitch marks, πόλις = {{IPAchar|/pólīs/}} or, as you may prefer, {{IPAchar|/pólis/}}. And although it may be strange to put a diacritic over {{IPAchar|/ː/}}, it's not impossible if {{IPAchar|/ː/}} is an elongation of the previous vowel, such that {{IPAchar|/aː/}} is essentially equivalent to {{IPAchar|/a͡a/}} as a diphthong of itself. But I opted not to use tie markers in the redesign because it makes pitch diacritics more complicated to place...ultimately I did away with the ties and just use {{IPAchar|/./}} to separate immediately adjacent vowel syllables.   :In the Ancient Greek pitch accent, ''as I understand it'', the pitch change only happens on one vowel mora and only lasts for one vowel mora, and then immediately reverts for the rest of the vowel and for all remaining vowels. For acute or grave pitch, it only falls on the final vowel mora of the syllable, and none of the vowel morae before it in the same syllable. With tilde pitch, it only falls on the penultimate vowel mora of the syllable, and none before the penultimate and none on the final. For one mora vowels, there can only be {{IPAchar|/ā á à/}}. For vowels of two or more morae, the possibilities are {{IPAchar|/āā āá āà áā/}}. The combination {{IPAchar|/áà/}} cannot work as you may expect, because IPA strictly defines {{IPAchar|/à/}} as an absolute low, and not a relative drop (which is {{IPAchar|/â/}}). - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh|talk]]) 00:25, 30 May 2012 (UTC)   :In the Ancient Greek pitch accent, ''as I understand it'', the pitch change only happens on one vowel mora and only lasts for one vowel mora, and then immediately reverts for the rest of the vowel and for all remaining vowels. For acute or grave pitch, it only falls on the final vowel mora of the syllable, and none of the vowel morae before it in the same syllable. With tilde pitch, it only falls on the penultimate vowel mora of the syllable, and none before the penultimate and none on the final. For one mora vowels, there can only be {{IPAchar|/ā á à/}}. For vowels of two or more morae, the possibilities are {{IPAchar|/āā āá āà áā/}}. The combination {{IPAchar|/áà/}} cannot work as you may expect, because IPA strictly defines {{IPAchar|/à/}} as an absolute low, and not a relative drop (which is {{IPAchar|/â/}}). - [[User:Gilgamesh|Gilgamesh]] ([[User talk:Gilgamesh|talk]]) 00:25, 30 May 2012 (UTC)   +   + ::You both make some good points. I suggest we limit ourselves to the macron as an indicator of normal pitch to long, accented vowels, so that we can show which mora is changed in pitch and which isn't. All vowels which have no accent would then be shown without any diacritics. Also, as excited as I initially was about the idea, I'm starting to wonder if the switch to acute accents as indicators of stress accent was a good idea. At least with the previous system, the fact that something was fundamentally different about Classical vs. Koine/Byzantine accent was clear. Now it isn't. -[[User:Atelaes|Atelaes]] <small>[[User talk:Atelaes|λάλει ἐμοί]]</small> 00:53, 30 May 2012 (UTC)       == Posessive Adjectives ==   == Posessive Adjectives ==

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