| Talk:latve Aug 27th 2012, 18:04 | ← Older revision | Revision as of 18:04, 27 August 2012 | | Line 2: | Line 2: | | | :You will have to ask the authors of the LLVV online, who give this word as the feminine form of {{l|lv|latvis}} (albeit a much less used, poetic one). Check it out [http://www.tezaurs.lv/llvv/show.jsp?pid=RFf7pAVGWA&cit=full here]. Another dictionary mentioning it (referencing both the LLVV and the LE1) is [http://www.tezaurs.lv/sv/?w=latvji here]. It seems to me that this term is poetic (the second link above explicitly marks it as such), which is why it makes you suspicious; but the links above are quite positive that it does exist. I'll add the label 'poetic' to this word. (By the way, I have found no evidence that Latve is a poetic synonym for Latvia; could you perhaps provide a link to one? If you can, I'll include the meaning in this entry.) --[[User:Pereru|Pereru]] ([[User talk:Pereru|talk]]) 02:13, 12 July 2012 (UTC) | | :You will have to ask the authors of the LLVV online, who give this word as the feminine form of {{l|lv|latvis}} (albeit a much less used, poetic one). Check it out [http://www.tezaurs.lv/llvv/show.jsp?pid=RFf7pAVGWA&cit=full here]. Another dictionary mentioning it (referencing both the LLVV and the LE1) is [http://www.tezaurs.lv/sv/?w=latvji here]. It seems to me that this term is poetic (the second link above explicitly marks it as such), which is why it makes you suspicious; but the links above are quite positive that it does exist. I'll add the label 'poetic' to this word. (By the way, I have found no evidence that Latve is a poetic synonym for Latvia; could you perhaps provide a link to one? If you can, I'll include the meaning in this entry.) --[[User:Pereru|Pereru]] ([[User talk:Pereru|talk]]) 02:13, 12 July 2012 (UTC) | | | ::LLVV listing (hard to find BTW, doesn't turn up anything when you search exact word) is a "redirect" to latvieši, them listing it as possible inflection might simply be technical approach - they list certain inflection variations for every word. But while technically possible, it is unlikely to be used - as I already pointed out, though it is poetic to use non-suffixed form to refer to Latvians, it is perfectly normal everyday use for other nation names, none of which has such feminine form. The other dictionary you refer to simply merges material for several dictionaries, including LLVV. As LLVV was published in Soviet Latvia, I suspect they might have been mildly biased about including such terms. The other source is encyclopedia, not dictionary, it probably includes only "latvji" as alternate article name. That it is poetic for "Latvia" is well known fact, for example, Rainis used it extensively in his play Daugava, on which one of the most popular modern patriotic songs Saule Pērkons Daugava is based [[Special:Contributions/95.68.111.174|95.68.111.174]] 04:12, 26 August 2012 (UTC) | | ::LLVV listing (hard to find BTW, doesn't turn up anything when you search exact word) is a "redirect" to latvieši, them listing it as possible inflection might simply be technical approach - they list certain inflection variations for every word. But while technically possible, it is unlikely to be used - as I already pointed out, though it is poetic to use non-suffixed form to refer to Latvians, it is perfectly normal everyday use for other nation names, none of which has such feminine form. The other dictionary you refer to simply merges material for several dictionaries, including LLVV. As LLVV was published in Soviet Latvia, I suspect they might have been mildly biased about including such terms. The other source is encyclopedia, not dictionary, it probably includes only "latvji" as alternate article name. That it is poetic for "Latvia" is well known fact, for example, Rainis used it extensively in his play Daugava, on which one of the most popular modern patriotic songs Saule Pērkons Daugava is based [[Special:Contributions/95.68.111.174|95.68.111.174]] 04:12, 26 August 2012 (UTC) | | − | :::That is difficult for me to determine, since, as a non-native speaker, I cannot go beyond the available sources. In the LLVV, "latvis" is also a "redirect" (the LLVV lists both "latvis" and "latve" under "latvji", since it considers the plural form more important); the dictionary apparently treats "latvis" and "latve" as equally important (or equally unimportant). Both "latvis" and "latve" are given a genitive plural form "latvju" in the first line of their LLVV and SV entries. However, you may be right about these dictonaries being biased or overinclusive; this is certainly possible, and the phenomenon of words that don't exist but still are listed in some dictionary or dictionaries is well known. (Is there a way to find out about that?) The google attestations of "latve" I was able to find seem to all refer to a dance group called "Latve", which is probably from the "poetic Latvia" usage you mention; and this agrees with your opinion. | + | :::That is difficult for me to determine, since, as a non-native speaker, I cannot go beyond the available sources. In the LLVV, "latvis" is also a "redirect" (the LLVV lists both "latvis" and "latve" under "latvji", since it considers the plural form more important); is it also "technical"? The dictionary apparently treats "latvis" and "latve" as equally important (or equally unimportant). Both "latvis" and "latve" are given a genitive plural form "latvju" in the first line of their LLVV and SV entries. However, you may be right about these dictonaries being biased or overinclusive; this is certainly possible, and the phenomenon of words that don't exist but still are listed in some dictionary or dictionaries is well known. (Is there a way to find out about that?) The google attestations of "latve" I was able to find seem to all refer to a dance group called "Latve", which is probably from the "poetic Latvia" usage you mention; and this agrees with your opinion. | | − | :::So here's what I'll do right now -- I'll add the "poetic name for Latvia" sense as the main sense to this entry (with a quote from Rainis' ''Daugava'' as the illustrative example -- thanks for the tip!) and I'll mention the "female Latvian" sense as dubious (in the Usage Notes), sourcing it to these online dictionaries. In this way I'm not taking a strong position either way, and all the available information is presented to the casual reader. After all, even if "latve" is not usable as "female Latvian", maybe it existed in the past with this meaning (i.e., it may be archaic), and archaic words and senses also have a place in Wiktionary. What do you think? --[[User:Pereru|Pereru]] ([[User talk:Pereru|talk]]) 13:28, 27 August 2012 (UTC) | + | :::So here's what I'll do right now -- I'll add the "poetic name for Latvia" sense (or, to conform to the rules here, I'll create a new "Proper Noun" entry {{term|Latve|lang=lv}} for this sense) with a quote from Rainis' ''Daugava'' as the illustrative example (thanks for the tip!) and I'll mention the "female Latvian" sense as dubious (in the Usage Notes), sourcing it to these online dictionaries. In this way I'm not taking a strong position either way, and all the available information is presented to the casual reader. After all, even if "latve" is not usable as "female Latvian", maybe it existed in the past with this meaning (i.e., it may be archaic), and archaic words and senses also have a place in Wiktionary. What do you think? --[[User:Pereru|Pereru]] ([[User talk:Pereru|talk]]) 13:28, 27 August 2012 (UTC) | | |
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